the bottom line is that we are mostly safe because of markets. not because of government. companies were carved by bacteria simply to protect their brand. competition, device the pipes are reputation, it protects us much better than government over well. that is our show. i am john stossel, thank you for watching. [applause]hour lou: good evening, everybody. a lot has changed in the last 2f hours. to balance the republican author of tax revenue increases. president obama, maintaining a highly believable effort of the white house and congress to resolve differences that would avoid the fiscal cliff.

that is $1.2 trillion in automatic budget cuts and $600 billion in tax hikes that would result from the expiratin on december 31, te consequences would simply be devasting. the economic impact on the country and the american people would mean the loss of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs. e very likely onset of yet another recession. the white house timothy geithner on capitol hill today. he went there empty-handed to meet the party leaders. house speaker john boehner who has already offered to raise tax revenue finds himself not in a negotiation, but rather competing in the white house media campaign. this is how speaker boehner reacted earlier today to the demands of the white house that were laid out by timothy

geithner in a closed-door meeting. the treasury secretary reiterating the president's call for $1.6 trillion in new tax revenue and timothy geithner rrently offering nothing in return. in lieu of federal pending. >> first, despite the claims that the presint supports a balanced approach, democrats have yet to et serious about real spending cuts. secondly, no progress has been made in the talk between the white house and house over the last few weeks. this is not a game. lou: press secretary jay carney doesn't understand what speaker boehner sid. jay carney said the president is open tideas as long as those ideas include a tax hike on the top 2% of the nations taxpayers. jay carney making it clear today thathe president will not budge on this position.

>> the president will not sign any legislation that extends the bush era tax cuts for top earners in this country. this should not be news to anyone on capitol hill. it is certainly not news to anyone in america who was not in a coma during the campaign season. lou: senate majority leader kerry read with a much different take on his meeting with the treasury secretary. an almost gleeful harry reid told republicans to put specific revenues on the table, even as republicans continue to wait for the democtic party and specific spending cuts on the table. >> i had a nice meeting with secretary geithner this morning. i always enjoy meeting with him. democrats are all on the same page. republicans know where we stand. we have sete and said it so many times, and the president has said the same thing. it has been weeks, at least two weeks since we met at the white house. and we are still waiting for a

serious offer from the republans. now is the time for the republicans to move past this happy talk about revenues and put specifics on the table. lou: there is very little talk and none of it has been particularly happy on either side. the president and speaker boehner talked by phone last night. in a conversation that seems to have done nothing to drop the size tether. they characterize the conversation is direct and straightforward. whilnoting that all eyes in the fiscal cliff spinoff are now turn on the white house. to take all of this up tonight, the politics and policy in the games being played by both sides in washington dc, we will be joined by richard shelby, the ranking republican of the banking committee. he joins us. congressman devin nunes, chairman of the ways and means committee to tell us what kind

of effor it will take and who will be blamed for failure to stop these tax hikes and trillion dollar budget cuts. bradley graham is among our guests tonight. here are the details on exctly what secretary geithner has proposed on behalf of the presidento avoid the fiscal cliff. according to the republicans in that meeting, the offer includes $1.6 trillion in new revenue. that is higher taxes, raising tax rates, and taxes on investment income. at least $50 million in new stimul spending in the next fiscal year alone. mind you, of course, the repubcans looking for spending ts as an offset to their agreement to raise taxes. the only spending cuts in the

plan come from cutting medicare and other programs by 400 billion over the coming decade. timothy geithner also requesting the equivant of a permanent increase in the national debt limit. president obama remarkably consistent in his intent to raise taxes on the top 2% of taxpayers. half of those are small-business men and women. the entire election season, he did say a number of times since being reelected, and he's not backing off. e president and his baath insist on higher taxes for the so-called wealthy. remarkably, republicans seem surprised by secrery geithner. chief correspondent ed henry with our repor reporter: optimism faded as timothy geithner let the

republicans to decle the talks are going nowhere. >> i'm disappointed. i'm disappnted in where we are and what has happened over the last couple of weeks. i'm hehere trying to seriously resolve it. and i would hope the white house would get it as well. reporter: a key driver is that the president announced that spending cuts can wait. >> it would give us more time the next year to work together on a comprehensive plan to bring down the deficit. jay carney broke new ground by declaring that the president does on spending cuts within the budget plan to be included in the fiscal cliff talks. >> can you also look in the camera and say dear democrats, both for and include some of the spending cuts in this deal to avoid the fiscal cliff. because that's not what they're doing right now. should they include this?

>> yes, and i know that democrats except that this has to be a balanced package that includes revenues and cuts and spending cuts. >> yet months ago, that ws voted down 99 to zero. earlier this week, the number two democrat in the senate, dick durbin, insisted maj spending cuts and entitlement reform will not be part of these talks. nancy pelosi has been noncommittal about whether cuts will be in the deal. still, they are trying to breathe into the talks with vice present biden shopping avenue costco in washington, picking up a big-screen tv and an apple pie and insisting he is optimistic of the deal. >> i am. all these folks in the store. they are ing to make a difference. reporter: a phone call last

night betwee speaker boehner and the president was very curt. it signaled that the president is flexible on taxes by not being specific on the new rates. >> i will say that there can be no deal without rates on top earners ging up. reporter: the president is flexible and michael at 37 or 38 perhaps, in order to strike a deal with republicans. at the white house, ed henry, fox news. lou: our chief white house correspondent, thank you so much. tonight, it does not support raising anyone's taxes. joining us as the ranking republican on the senate banking committee, richard shelby in the housing and urban affairs committee. also a member of the appropriations committee and it's great to have you with us, senator. >> thank you. lou: i would like to start by saying that right now this

president has, it seems, as a negotiator, he has decided to insult speaker boehn and the republicans on capitol hill with a statement that he wants the stulus spending on top of higher taxes and 1.6 trillion and taxes. am i wrong in that regard? >> i think you are reading the tea leaves right. he has just been elected to another term. he is absent from these real talks here. i can say that i have been here a few years and if we don't do some cuts, and we only raise revenueswe are going to kick the can, taking a big can down the road and we are going to have problems. we are heading down the road of greece that they are facing and

it's going to be faster. lou:senator, let me show our audience, i think we can put these in very simple first grade math terms. we got that full screen. here is the result of the increase on taxes per year, if you will see there on the right. $82 billion per year with a result from taxing the top 2%. $82 billion per year. on the left, the number ishe projected deficit for this fiscal year, 2013. the production is $100,000,000,000.04. senator, this is a joke. this is 8% of the projected deficit and people are willing to, with absolute certainty, nd this count into recession and destroy millions of jobs. i mean, this president -- he is

frankly -- he is about to deliver a disaster to the american people. >> the president has an opportunity to be a real leader or he can be a politician. he has just come off from the election. we will have to see in the next few weeks if he's going to be really involved. most of the jobs in america are fed by small usinesses. these tactics will go to small-business people. you're going to choke on the job recovery of the future. everyby knows that. i think that the president needs to get real with this. i guess he is still campaigning. he's a good campaigner. but this is real economics now. we have to put the campaign aside and see what is best for america. more taxes without cuts, that's not good for ameri to be one republicans can win this negotiation by leading this president, as he has been to do, take this country over the

cliff. $1.2 trillion in automatic budget cuts to the first of the year. the expiration, the president wi win his victory, but it will be a punishing one for half of the small businses in the country. he will get his automatic tax increases, letting those tax cuts expire. it looks like that is the preferred solution here. >> i hope that therepublican majority in the majority of the republicans, the house and the senate, e will not be blocked, we will not be intimidated by the president here. i hope that the president will not le us over the cliff. if h does, he might win the battle, but he will rtainly lose the war. and america will will lose the war to of job creation and economic vitali. lou: let me ask you this. because you are keenly aware of the impact of public policy on our markets and our economy.

based on what we are reporting tonight, the demeanor of this president, the insult, there is no other way that i can think of to construe what timothy geithner carried over to speaker boehner today. i don't know why he bothered to make the trip. that was an insult. the markets tonight and tomorrow and i'm talking about asia and europe, they are going to be extremely volatile in reaction. do you not agree? >> i agree with you and i think the markets were watching us. individuals were watching us. this is real drama, it is serious. saturday is december 1. we coullget a substantial del and we could lower people's rates and bring in revenue. but we couldhave an economy with a lot of vitality to create jobs. or we could go into contraction.

lou: senator richard shelby, thank you so much. much more on these negotiations over what would be tax hikes and $1.2 trillion on the first of january. we will be talking with congressman devin nunes of california. >> big-money donors visiting the white house. does the president really want the ceos advice? things are getting serious with the republican party. what is going on? we take up that up with a former ceo of verizon wireless. ♪

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lou: it is now clear that there is a reason why the white house is not talking spending cuts and

only higher taxes on the so-called wealthy. even though half of those folks e runng small businesses. we will be taking all of that up in moments as we talk with ceo denny siegel, former bush staffer brad blakeman. stocks posting modest gains. despite all the negative rhetoric out of washington. pushing the market indexes higher for the week. we will see what happens tomorrow. the dow jones up 37 points today. the nasdaq rose 20. turning on the big board, 3.3 billion shares from just about the above the average of late. any after-hourstrading, futures moving lower. republican congressional leaders may not be getting a lot of quality time with the president in negotiating the fiscal cliff. but the top campaign donors ceainly are. government watchdogs running out

yesterday, archer daniels, patricia words, together they bundled 150,000 for the president and the dnc, just today, vice president biden at the grand opening of washington dc's first oscar story. he is greeted by cofounder who supported the president's reelection and spoke at the democratic convention. he also supported the president's election a little while back. the president making time for another business leader tomorrow, pushing his proposals at pennsylvania toy manufacturer , saying that a tax increase would not change his life any. joining me now is the denny streetball. and also brad blakeman. great to see you both. >> you have seen a lot in washington dc. but what is your sense of what we are watching? in particular, the little basket

of goodies we talked about with speaker boehnertoday. >> he lectured both mccain and speaker boehner and other leadership. elections have consequences, and basically, he told them that they would have to be forestalled health care. would much rather campaign.

>> we have no leadership in the white house today. this idea of going o and talking to union leaders and ceos, grandstanding on the company is getting us nowhere. what we ed is someone who can put a deal together and get it through congreress. lou: the fact is that nothing that he is doing to this point is leading to a succcssful negotiation. therefore i have to say, i don't think he is negotiating. i think he's making a declaration. >> is an unfortunate? in the business world, he would last a nanosecond. lou: he's not in the business world. instead he had ceos like trained donkeys. it seems like a parade of just absurd possibilities being raised. as if is is a negoation. you don't ha a negotiation

until people are talking on the negotiation is framed. is that right? >> that is right. the president has the ability to go up to capitol hill and he can work a deal if he wants to. and i happen to agree with you, %-political people of the white house have convinced him that in the president is willing to fight another day in january when he can tk about spendiig cutsif at all, or entitlement reform on his own timetable. the only problem is we have another battle looming. that is raising the debt ceiling. thpresident is putting us in crisis after crisis. lou: amounted to anything what you think on this. ese timetables are off. they are o by months. the fact is that the timetable begins tomorrow. we are going to start seeing investors reacting.

in the debt markets and currency markets to what is transpiring, and this is a major disster. >> i don't think people realize how serious this is. i think what people believe that is that there will be a solution of some kind. persrsonally, what i believe we will do, we will kick the can down the road. we will make some minimal concessions between now and the that we will begin with this again in six months or year whatever. in the meantime from the markets will freeze. lou: tank you both for being here. up next, congressman devin nunes of california joins us for more th what the outcome will be. president obama's contraceptive maate. it turns out that a fedal court has intervened. a catholic business owner winning in court. peter johnson joins us here

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lou: potentially, a significant blow to the obama controversial contraceptive mandate. the eighth circuit court of appeals, granting a preliminary injunction to stop that mandate reinforced agaiinst the ssouri catholic business owner. the list of states refusing state run health care exchanges for insurance is growing. arizona becomes the latest to tell the federal government it will have to aume the burden of operating at the exchange with the state of arizona and the supervision, perhaps even headaches of running the exchange rate bring the total number of states refusing set up an exchange under obamacare to 17. ten other states remain

undecided as to the course they will take. all of these states, the 17 states, nearly all of them, republican governors. we are joined now by peter johnson junior, kyle appellate attorney, fox news legal analyst. it is great to see you. lou: your reaction to the injunction against the contraceptive mandate? >> mr. craig o'brien, a christian-based company, they say that as part of their credo, the 10 commandments, the golden rule. delivering things for the lord. they say we don't want to be forced to porsche purchase pills that will kill babies.

holding off a million dollars plus in fines, and weare going to look at the appeal. so in that sense, it's a very positive development for companies like that. those cases don't ordinarily win. in ts particular case, the court said that your right of religious exercises not being limited. you can still receive and worship. using your limited with regard to obamacare. now, the circuit court is going to look at it and nothing can happen until the appeal is hear lou: as you say, this is a short odds proposition to have gotten the appeal and how long are the odds or its move to the supreme court? >> i think the odds are not good. in the end, theodds are greater. they are greater for the catholic church's efforts to ensure that catholic organizations maintain their religious liberty and that they are not forced to violate the

rules in providing these types of pills and procedures. lou: we have a number of lawsuits still is still proceeding. where do we stand with obamacare? it seems as though the effort to repeal it to the courts is vain and energy. >> there are a lot of robust efforts and others around the country. they will move their way to the system. at some point, the religious liberty issued well, i believe, did the united states supme court. not specifically this case, but that involving the roman catholic church. one will get the united states supreme court, and we will eventually have it. lou: very quickly, just a little time left here. seventeen states setting up those exchges. this is starting tlook like a commend th problem. >> oh, it's a problem and i don't think they will be able to make it. a lot of states say that we are not going to clen up your mess.

some studies show that because of these exchanges, health care insunce premiums will be more expensive rather than expensive a concentration in one market and one company. it usually means lower prices for consumers. they are trying to do the opposite and it is a mess lou: it has been a mess from the beginning. >> absolutely, and it's only going to get worse. lou: just a month to go before the ne obamare taxes kick in. it will amount to nearly $270 billion in higher taxes. timothy geithner sent to capitol hill to meet with leaders. he didn't stay very long. the "a-team" reacts coming up next.

and ambassador susan rice, apparently the president's top choice to replace secretary clinton. more than benghazi can propose problems for ambassador rice. we will take a close look coming up next. and president obama keep saying the same thing. speaker boehner keeps asking for the same thing. we will be talking with one of more than 200 congressman who have signed the grover norquist antitax pledge.

lou: congressional republicans pushing back hard against the president and democrats over the fiscalliff proposal. the white house saying that the real problem is republicans who won't give in on new taxes for top earners. my next guest sound grover norquist and his anti-tax pledge

concerning. congressman nunes, it is great to have you with us. >> this little visit i timothy geithner to speaker boehner, in which he bsically says we are going to talk about stimulus -- that is pretty hard step to push or to stomachh isn't? >> yes, timothy geithner has been coming here for four years. he has come before the ways and means committee, before the budget committee. this guy has never told us the truth and we challenged them for years. the numbers don't add up, and that is the problem. he came here today and it was a waste of time. we shove the president meeting with the senate. it is kind of a joke and it is sad because it is a serious issue for the american people. lou: let me ask you. speaker boehner expressing

frustration. it doesn't look to me that this president wants a negotiation, beuse he is not saying so, as he pointed out. secondly come he doesn't want a negotiation because he's rlly making demands. he is not negotiating. so is this a declaration of going over the cliff? >> i hate to make a joke about this, but i saw earlier on the program tonight vice president biden was somewhere doing shopping. so i'm wondering to myself, is he alpine swimsuits for him and the president bill clinton and the president bill clinton i think we met really don't know what they're doing. the vice president should be with the senate right now. that's whht he should be doing, not out shopping or campaigning. this is serious stuff. we are going t raise this year -- this is one thing tt is not being talked about. almost $3 trillion. that will be the most of this government in the history of the republic has ever taken in.

$3 trillion. so why the current tax rate revenues increase? why would you go and raise tax rates on businesses and people who are trying to create jobs. most of those are small businesses. lou: and fitting into the top 2%, according toome etimates -- as he talked about the size of the revenue coming in, most of that from income tax, obviously. pple forget that we have seen revenue of the federal government rise by 26% over the past two years. with those bush tacuts in place. with that kind of increase in revenue, spending is without question the problem. >> yes, and to talk about raising taxes right now. at the same time, not talk about health care. we had a guest on earlier talking about health care. everyone around the world, and that would mean people from the

european union today -- they know that we have to take on health care. the republicans in the house no we have to take on health care. everybody in america that wants to be honest with ttmselves know that medicare and medicaid @%e not working. we are he said that almost half the states are not going to implement obamacare and it seems like the only people on this planet that don't know that health care has to be on t table and has to be set by the president and the senate. lou: it would be a tragedy if the way in which this president can receive instruction is through a recession and an plosion in unemployment over into the most severe projections of the american action forum. we are talking about million people unemployed. this is a speaker boehner said, it's not a game.

>> this is serious stuff. they are not putting serious proposals on the table. they are hoping to build up a crescendo right before christmas, create a panic so that everybody has to does vote for something. ifnot, we are going to block the fiscal cliff. we have seen this before. we have seen this way before. we saw once with t.a.r.p., where panic was created, you had to vote for something. then we saw last year on the debt limit. so i think what the president is tryi to do, they think they can run up right bore christmas and then everybody will cave and the problem is the can will get kicked down the roadnd what would we do? lou: tnk you very mu, congressman devin nunes. good luck in averting what would be a trage for the country. up next, u.n. ambassador susan rice. she appears to be a very savvy investor. coming u tomorrow, joe trippi joins us.

kris kobach on illegal immigration and fleet commander admiral james lyons. we are talking about benghazi. that is tomorrow. stay with us. the fiscal cliff, no game. the a-team tells us whether the president will listen or whether president will listen or whether he will get ready to anand we can save you 10% on ground shipping over the ups store. look this isn' my first christmas. these deals all seem great atthe time... but later, not so much. this isn't that kind of deal. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. save on ground shipping at fedex office. olaf gets great rewards for his small business! pizza! [ garth ] olaf's small busins earns 2% cash back

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lou: you can a environmentalists to the growing list of susan rice as potenal nomination to t secretary of state. that is what she needed, little bit more opposition. she holds about a half million dollars in shares. the company seeking state department approval of a keystone xl pipeline. a third of her personal wealth coming out as high as 44 million is invested in canaan energy interests. she was born in canada and we

don't know if there was a relationship. there is a reason critics report to the ex-im bank in the 2012 the school year, another 15 billion in taxpayer loan guarantees issued with the subsidized sales of a single company. boeing beefiting over that period. the ceo, he enjoys a very solid relationship with the administration. in fact, he chrs the export council. and a special nod tonight to a new york city police officer. being praised for an act of kindness caught on camera. and arizona tourist recently snapped this picture of this officer, giving a pair of socks and boots that he had bought, giving them to a hommless man in new york. the image was posted on the official facebook page.

more than 30,000 comments, and so many people have liked the picture on facebook. all eyes now are on the white hohouse for a solution to the fiscal cliff. will the president -- what will he do? the "a-team" sorts out what is happening in washington. monica crowley and angela mcglowan, steve murphy, they join us here coming up

u: joining us now is the "a-team." fox news analyst angela mcglowan. and monica crowley, and campaign

consultant steve murphy. let's talk about first, if we may, this negotiation. speaker boehner. he looks like he's about had. >> yes, he came out of the white house meeting today and use the word werdisappointed, which is very diplomatifor at happened. there is no mystery about barack obama. this is the man we have come to know for the last four years. he has no intention of coromising. no intention of cutting spending. he has never shown any indication of that. he has every intention of raising the rate and will not compromise. lou: steve murphy is shaking his head. why aryou shaking your head? >> because the president thought he had a deal last year with the house of representatives. the president is willing to do this with mostly spending cuts.

u: is often about the negotiations for anyone to do that. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] lou: if you want, watch the markets tonight. lou: watch the markets in europe and asia with the rhetoric today from washington dc and you tll me how sanguine you are about a deadline around christmas. the markets, they seem to be a little anxious. >> they are little anxious, but they have not gone down significantly. that was it. the economy is growing strongly. also because one thing newt gingrich got right, is so-called fiscal cliff is not a click. it is more like a fiscal bunny hill. therris automatic tax increases and automatic ending cuts would amount to 250 a year.

>> the spending cuts he would put on the table, number two, i am from the school of thought of importance. we should let president obama bought the fiscal cliff and we should stop - [inaudible] lou: we will be back with the "a-team." i would like to explore this bunny hill thing as a metaphor for the fiscal cliff. for the fiscal cliff. it is a great relief you know how painful heartburn can be. for fast, long lasting relief, use doctor recommended gaviscon®. only gaviscon® forms a protective barrier that helps block stomach acid from splashing up- relieving the pain quickly. try fast, long lasting gaviscon®.

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lou: we're back with the a-team, angela, i think that president made a huge mistake, pushing the republicans to position where best deal is 1.2 trillion in automatic budget cuts, they are

not getting that with this administration and take t hit on the bush tax cuts, they have no volition. i think he made a very bad read. >> he made a very bad read, right now republicans cannot win unless they take the argument back and they tell the american people wt could happen. if we fall off this fiscal cliff, people are not going to care whose fall it is, they are just going to know we're in a deeper abyss. lou: we have our eyes to follow, we see speaker boehner and mitch mcconnell in washington. the president is not there. that has to be a tough sell? isn't it? >> there is a long way to tiperary . when it comes to these

negotiation, predent was willing last year to haveore cuts than tax increases, he is still there. this is going to be a long process, we will get there. if we don't, it is not the end of the world. world. lou: you are going down in history as fellow who called a multitrillion dollar reversal a bunny hill. >> it won't be. lou: i admire your certainty. >> there are two key points we've not discussed. i think that the president wants to go over the fiscal cliff, he wants all of the tax rates to go up, he needs that revenue,nd more important we know he is not going to get blamed. the madial protect him -- media will protect h. the other thing, this president, for a long time has tald about a balanced approach to deficit

reduction, we assumed revenue on the table and spending cuts, but only conversation we're having is tax increases, there is no conversation about spending cuts. >> in january 2010, said he wanted to tap into entitlement reform, we have to look at entitlement. neil: steve quickly, one thing you are not looking at on the timeline, you think that markets will not have a voice in what happens, i saw, always, stay tuned. >> we'll see. lou: right, steve murphy thank you. an >> thank you. lou: mont monica rowley, what e bleepp >> i know. for your comments. republicans seem to be folding like cheap suits in the fiscal negotiations it just seems that way, doesn't it it does however seem that w way. james wrote,ea